Discuss

. . . and the Seder (Part 2)

I do not want nor will I let you, my dear reader, know me completely, but only in part.
You, likewise, do not want nor will let me to know you completely, but only in part.

You have your space and secrets, and I have my space and secrets.

We both do not agree on everything, and do not expect to . . . but we do agree enough of the time about enough things to communicate enough - but not more than we want to nor have to.

Two-person partnerships, threesomes, and larger groups consist of persons who agree enough of the time about enough things to communicate and cooperate enough - but not more than we want to nor have to.

The "things" they communicate and cooperate about are done so in agreement involving enough of a mutually-consensual way or ways (or means) to form an at least temporary recognizable partnership, threesome, or larger group identifiable as such.

The preceding is true whatever the task, subject matter, goal, objective, etc. happens to be.

This evening, for example, I bought an item at a store. I could tell that one of the clerks did not look kindly upon my Newt campaign button I was wearing, but because I was buying a product in a store where he was the clerk and his continuing employment was at stake, he quietly processed the transaction and did not proceed to interrogate me or express overt disdain regarding the button.

A person might have some substantial political or theological disagreements against a pastor of the church, political party, business or corporation, etc. but if expediency under the circumstances requires qualified or reserved response, such necessitate prudent and cautious, carefully-thought-out, give-and-take responses (andshrewdly-savvy lack of response) as cogently-calculated means to some ultimate end in everyone's best interests.

Back when I was younger, in a regimented elementary and higher-level school situation, I learned about Venn diagrams: graphical rectangular boxes within which were various circles intersecting to various extents.

Such could be representative of the intersecting interests of various individuals - whether the subject at hand involves politics, religion, economic or governmental-structure theory, or whatever.

And, I'll probably never forget the magnificent lecture-like description I got from one of my brothers-in-law pertaining to the back-and-forth mechanism involving dial-up internet workings . . . how a signal from the source would go to the receiver, which receiver would send its acknowledgment signal back to the source, after which the source would send new information back to the receiver acknowledging that it had received a signal from the receiver, followed by the receiver sending a signal of new information to the source, which the source then signaled the receiver that it has received that new-information signal . . . and so on.

Signals from the source and receiver were thus not sent simultaneously. One "spoke" at a time, then waited for the response. They did not "speak" together at once.

Which is what makes God so awesome. He can hear and understand communication from six billion people all at once, and understand . . . and respond to . . . each one simultaneously.

For us mortals, it is instead: "One at a time, please!"

And/Or: "Please do not talk over me!"

And/Or: ""Don't butt in while I am talking! Wait until I am finished!"

And/Or: "Sorry, I was distracted by other noise. What did you say?"

Proverbs 10:18 He who conceals hatred has lying lips, and he who utters slander is a fool.

Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

Proverbs 18:13 If one gives answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

Proverbs 18:17 He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Proverbs 23:9 Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words.

Proverbs 29:9 If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

Proverbs 29:20 Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you upon earth; therefore let your words be few.
Ecclesiastes 5:3 For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words.

Matthew 6:7 And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Romans 14:5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.

Romans 15:2 let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to edify him.

First Corinthians 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
First Corinthians 12:11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

First Corinthians 14:19 . . . nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a language.
First Corinthians 14:26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
First Corinthians 14:27 If any speak in a language, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
First Corinthians 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.
First Corinthians 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
First Corinthians 14:40 but all things should be done decently and in order.

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves.
Philippians 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger

It is fascinating to watch and/or hear how cooperative couples, threesomes, and larger groups discuss and cooperatively communicate among themselves. There is usually a mutually-agreed-upon protocol (whether specified by a moderator exercising Robert's Rules of Order, or a more non-formatted free-discussion) give-and-take understanding pertaining to when one should start speaking, then stop speaking, then the other or another should begin speaking, then that person stop talking, then another begin talking, and so forth.

It is both confusing and distressing when two or more persons talk at once, and if such becomes prolonged, repeated, or perpetuated (particularly with a rise in voice volume and/or rapidity of semantical utterances), it is usually a sign of impending or ongoing conflict and rather non-resolvable dissension.

Another analogy would be how vehicle drivers cooperate or do not cooperate amongst each other on roads, highways, and freeways.

Stopsigns and stoplights are equivalent to speech initiation and cessation monitors and regulators. When the proverbial light is red, one speaker politely shuts his or her mouth and lets the other speak. When the proverbial light turns green, the other speaker politely shuts their mouth, letting the other speaker courageously open his or her mouth and to commence intelligently-applicable and contextual oration.

Speed limits are equivalent to how fast and how long one or the other speakers flaps their jaws, moves their tongues, and mouths on with whatever they want and like to say.

Each car stays a reasonable distance from the other cars without excessive tailgating, so one speaker recognizes and tolerates and expects at least a few mini-seconds of quiet between him or her finishing their piece of thought for the time being (and the other speaker hopefully agreeing that that piece of thought has had sufficient time to be expressed) . . . before another speaker begins to express their piece of thought either in agreement to or rebuttal against or in hopefully-congenial qualification or synthesis of what was just previously stated.

Group leaders, or moderators, are like squad-car police on the prowl for those needing umpires to mediate between them when acceptable and conventional speech-display parameters are violated or exceeded which would result in adversarial disruption and complete termination of continuing communication.

Such moderators not only at vital in allowing or censoring sequential rotation and talk-time of speakers within a group, but also the content of the speech proclaimed.

Equivalent to rudely or angrily honking, patently offensive speech content to a majority (or even an overwhelmingly-influential minority) within the group, or even to the moderator himself, can and usually is stymied, thwarted, and in various others ways discouraged by the moderator biased with his own opinions and/or sensitive to group concerns - whether he is expressing his own preferences, or simply concerns in accord with the majority of the group who appointed him as moderator and continue to allow him to function as moderator.

Being that this webpage was written during Holy Week 2012, about the time many jewish seder ceremonies were done, a few points need to be said about such observances - which observances are tainted and twisted by each rabbi and participant who include varying extraneous items and actions, excluding whatever other extraneous items and actions, making exceptions, imposing non-authorized additions and non-authorized subtractions . . . all using the excuse of time limitations, lack of resources, along with endless other adiaphoric exemptions and self-appointed concoctions.

First, the Biblical instructions for doing Scripturally-"kosher" seders is found exclusively in Exodus chapter 12, and therein several things need to be noted.

Second, there are absolutely NO command nor instruction in Exodus 12 to wash hands or feet or anything else. Although it is true that Christ Jesus washed the feet of His disciples (as recorded in John 13:3-15) at his so-called "Last Supper" passover before His crucifixion, and that our bodies should be washed with pure water (according to Hebrews 10:22), the Lord objected to mandatory ritual washing intended to function as pseudo-redemptive human acts of self-sacrificial self-justification and self-atonement as clearly indicted by the following verses:

Matthew 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
2 "Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat."
3 He answered them, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.'
5 But you say, 'If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.'
6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.
7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'"
10 And He called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand:
11 not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"
13 He answered, "Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.
14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15 But Peter said to him, "Explain the parable to us."
16 And he said, "Are you also still without understanding?
17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on?
18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man.
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.
20 These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

Luke 11:37 While He was speaking, a Pharisee asked Him to dine with him; so He went in and sat at table.
38 The Pharisee was astonished to see that He did not first wash before dinner.
39 And the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of extortion and wickedness.
40 You fools! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?
41 But give for alms those things which are within; and hey, everything is clean for you.
42 But woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the synagogues and salutations in the market places.
44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men walk over them without knowing it."
45 One of the lawyers answered Him, "Teacher, in saying this you reproach us also."
46 And He said, "Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
47 Woe to you! for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed.
48 So you are witnesses and consent to the works of your fathers; for they killed them, and you build their tombs.
49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,'
50 that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe to you lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering."
53 As he went away from there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press Him hard, and to provoke Him to speak of many things,
54 lying in wait for Him, to catch at something He might say.

Third, there are absolutely NO commands nor instructions in Exodus 12 for lambs to be gathered into one Temple to be slaughtered. Rather:

Exodus 12:3 Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month they shall take every man a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household;
Exodus 12:4 and if the household is too small for a lamb, then a man and his neighbor next to his house shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb.

Those rabid of the Building Committee who feel some idolatrous Christ-substitutionary craving to fulfil their sumptuous structure erection as vital to their eternal salvation simply will have to put that obsession on the back burner.

Pertaining to "temples," the New Testament says this:

Mark 14:58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.'"
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
Second Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Revelation 3:12 He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there
Revelation 15:5 After this I looked, and the temple of the tent of witness in heaven was opened
Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

Some presume that a literal temple building is necessary to jive with the following, but such is probably meant to be taken both figuratively and symbolically:

Second Thessalonians 2:4 . . . who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Concerning (not "regarding") annual lamb-animal acquisition and slaughter, keep in mind the verse:

First Corinthians 5:7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.

Fourth, part of most seders state that the LORD Himself alone kills the first-born of Egypt, and typical seder semantics make a totally-errant but adamently-emphatic point that that execution was NOT done by "an angel, a seraph, a messenger." But in fact, quite the contrary is instead true:

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to slay the Egyptians; and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to slay you.

The "destroyer" and the "LORD" are two different entities! Even though the LORD commissions "the destroyer" to destroy, the two are not the same nor identical sentient entities!

Fifth, there is absolutely NO indication that the seder nor any other Jewish meal ends (rather than begins) with a Blessing of Grace. Consider the timing of the Grace blessing in the following Scriptural (NOT concocted-rabbinical) passages:

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body."

Mark 6:41 And taking the five loaves and the two fish He looked up to heaven, and blessed, and broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples to set before the people; and he divided the two fish among them all.

Mark 8:6 And He commanded the crowd to sit down on the ground; and He took the seven loaves, and having given thanks He broke them and gave them to His disciples to set before the people; and they set them before the crowd.

Mark 14:22 And as they were eating, He took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body."

Luke 22:19 And He took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

Luke 24:28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He appeared to be going further,
29 but they constrained Him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent." So He went in to stay with them.
30 When He was at table with them, He took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.
31 And their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished out of their sight.
32 They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked to us on the road, while He opened to us the scriptures?"
33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them,
34 who said, "The Lord has (NOT "is"!) risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!"
35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

Sixth, "Elijah" was never once mentioned either within Exodus 12 nor by Jesus during His passover 'Last Supper. To divert attention to Elijah - as some kind of a wimp-assisting, co-redemptive, fire-beckoning Sidekick or Enforcer alongside or previewing Jesus the glorified Christ - is near-blasphemy and idolatrously diverting attention away from Redeemer-Messiah Jesus and His sole importance.

The Two Witnesses spoken of in Revelation are of course coming, but remember what quasi-Elijah John the Baptist said of himself in comparison to Jesus Christ:

Mark 1:7 And he preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.
Luke 3:16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but He who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
John 1:27 . . . even He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."

John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."

Seventh, the near-blasphemous phrases: "It would have been enough if God had opened the Sea for us, It would have been enough if God had given us the Torah and not the land of Israel, etc. -- is blatantly wrong. On two counts:

(1) Ezekiel chapter 47 clearly and succinctly specifies the territorial boundaries of the God-given and God-apportioned Holy Land to Israeli Jews, and not to antisemitic and so-called "palestinian" arabs, and

(2) The atonement and redemption of Christ Jesus by Himself was and is: "the enough" required for sufficiency, and THAT ultimate objective is the ONLY thing that can truly satisfy both Jews and Gentiles alike.

Eighth, nowhere within Exodus chapter 12 nor during Christ's 'Last-Supper' passover was the presumptuous phrase: "Next Year in Jerusalem" uttered or supposed to be uttered.

Finally, should a prophet, priest, pastor, or rabbi cover their heads with a shawl or yarmulka or kippa or skullcap or whatever . . . when praying to God?

Even a young toddler can understand the plain and simple admonition of Christian Jew and Chief Apostolic Rabbi Saint Paul when he stated:

First Corinthians 11:4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head,
First Corinthians 11:5 but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.
First Corinthians 11:6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a shawl.
First Corinthians 11:14 Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him,
First Corinthians 11:15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
First Corinthians 11:16 If any one is inclined to be contentious, we recognize no such custom [of allowing a woman to consider her loose long hair as adequate or equivalent to a prayer covering or veil], nor do the churches of God.

http://cdccmn2.tripod.com/theseder.htm
[ The Seder (Part One) ]